Un-schooling with Dayna Martin – “Living outside the Matrix” podcast episode 20

September 13, 2019 0 By Ronny Jaskolski


Welcome to episode 20 of the Living
Outside the Matrix podcast from Lawful Rebel. Hello and welcome to the podcast
for thinking people where we challenge the assumptions of mainstream, where we
question all those things that everybody just knows. Hi there, I’m your host Nigel
and on the show today it’s my great pleasure to be joined by Dana
Martin to discuss homeschooling in the form of a unschooling I should say so
Dana is a mother of four and an unschooling advocate she’s an author and
a conference speaker and I believe also she’s founded the unschooling United an
organization a nonprofit organization that raises the awareness of unschooling
so hi Dana and welcome to the show I thank you so much for having me I’m so
glad that we finally connected and that we’re doing this this is so great indeed
it’s a fascinating subject home schooling in general and you’re I’m very
keen to hear all about your very unschooling but maybe you can still kick
us off with a little bit about your background where you’re from and house
what is this thing unschooling and how did it how did you find yourself doing
it okay sure I grew up in New Hampshire in
the US then I still live in New Hampshire actually I live here here now
I’m 44 years old I have four kids I have a son who’s 18 the same as Devin a
daughter who’s almost 16 her name well her name is Dakota but she told me when
she was three years old that she wanted to be called Tiffany okay at time we’ve
respected that so her name is Tiffany I have a daughter ivy who is 12 and a
son Orion who’s 9 so two boys and two girls let me start off by saying I never
imagined doing something so radical that I never a million years would have
guessed that we’d be doing overdoing I am married to a man that I met when I
was 15 and he was 17 we were highschool sweethearts yeah it was just a really
cool story and no we were married in four years later we had our first child
and that that’s when the whole journey began so when I gave birth Devon in the
hospital within moments after he was born the nurse handed him to me and
turned on the television and the Columbine shootings were happening live
but I don’t know if anybody in Australia is familiar with your listenership I’m
not sure what they’re familiar with but the shootings in the u.s. were a big
deal and they kind of all started then and so it was just this pinnacle moment
of life where I was seeing mothers losing their children and that’s really
twisted to me that the news shows things like this live anyway and I and I
couldn’t look away from the TV and I couldn’t believe what I was seeing and I
was holding my new horn and there was just this moment of time where I said to
myself how many of those kids and how many of those parents would have rather
have been home that day but didn’t know they had the choice to be with her child
that they had the freedom to make that decision and so it all started there for
me actually as far as making this decision I said to myself that I my kids
would always have the choice to go to school in fun so I didn’t come at it
from a place of fear like I think a lot of people might hey myself that I don’t
want my kids to be shot so I’m not putting them in school it was more like
children’s rights that whole issue was brought to the forefront for me
yeah I mean with the shooters what those kids must have gotten through in their
lives and the kids that were you know the whole thing in general just got me
thinking and so that start for me living this
life but it was also a really kind of a natural naturally minded approach that
brought me to this place so attachment style parenting is
something that we did from the very beginning what would you what do you
describe attachment stop or is this just for profit yeah I just that’s a really
good question so attachment parenting is meeting the needs of your child and not
feeling as though they’re manipulating you I think that’s like the foundation
of it that most parenting advice on the market today are focused on obedience
and compliance and meeting the parents needs solely the parents needs for quiet
uninterrupted sleep they don’t children’s to be an inconvenience with
would you kind of cool that authoritarian parenting I know some of
the listens here in the UK might might relate that to authoritarian either okay
you’re in the UK I’m sorry why did I think you have a strong job there’s a
name as a British name in the UK did you know that syllogistic I just got back
from the UK oh okay great stuff on your way passing through from India no I went
to India and then I went to the UK for two weeks and I spoke in Scotland I mean
if I would have known you were there we would have connected but I go every here
so we’ll see each other next oh yeah the authoritarian paradigm of parenting
is more traditional it’s what most people do yeah which I already described
it’s more focused on the parents needs where what I’m promoting and what
radical unschooling is or is based in a partnership based paradigm which is
completely different yeah fantastic yeah I mean I was perhaps
you could to have offer some kind of definition of unschooling just for our
readers benefit but I’m also coming out this agonist discussion from home
educators point of view and and and I’m I’m
fascinated to to obviously pick your brain about some of the challenges
around the whole concept so so so yeah let me back that to use it for some kind
of definition do you have it definitely should not be sleeve to in itself is
living life as though school doesn’t exist it’s a lot of people hear the term
like most of us that are unschooling have a love-hate relationship with the
term because it’s kind of misleading people think it’s uneducated or they
think it’s a neglectful approach or super permissive or they draw all these
conclusions in their mind but what unschooling really is is just not doing
school so school schools are based on the authoritarian paradigm and they’re
really they’re really outdated actually the way that they go about teaching and
educating and and everything about them very outdated in a day and age where
information is at our fingertips and children children learn best when
they’re internally motivated so yeah totally and so the whole concept of
course learning which is what a school bases and faces their approach on which
they need to to educate so many kids at once on this whole idea of children’s
rights and so forth those respecting the child’s needs and how they want to learn
and force learning is really authoritarian and and those kids don’t
learn what the intention is for them to learn anyway so unschooling is living
life as though school doesn’t exist or not doing school it’s not it’s not not
educating so education it’s really important to unschoolers education is
very important to our family learning is really supposed to be really fun and
learning is like breathing and it comes really easy to kids when it’s not forced
and when it’s based on what they love to do and what they’re interested in so
it’s really easy to share what the approach isn’t yeah you know I think
that yeah I see him the if you like the non-aggression principle as being really
foundational it kind of brought me into that the the the whole idea of what we
loosely refer to as home education and I tend to think of it as home as
as sort of self led facilitate facilitated self education sort of
mainly in the home environment really that’s what we trying to practice but
you can get bogged down with labels but I find one of the most important
principles is that is the fact that that children are not being coerced into into
any situation to have it having their day managed for them and in in some
respect that sort of disempowers them from getting on with that learning that
life skill of how to manage your day and of course if you’re living life as the
so school doesn’t exist you’re right there in the thick of it on you you’re
you’re managing it you’re making decisions all the time and I think you
probably a you know a complete sold on the idea that’s the best form of
Education well I think kids just naturally come to this life I think
parents have a harder time trusting their children with their own education
but my role isn’t my child’s teacher my role is their learning facilitator so
people people here though to homeschooling and they say like I
couldn’t ever do that because for one they can’t even imagine forcing their
children to do something else you know when they’re off doing the dynamic of
having to force them to do everything else miss it’s so when you’re when
you’re in the role of controlling another human being all day every day
it’s exhausting and it’s not joyful it’s really miserable it’s not what would you
say to those parents some who say you know how do you how would you wouldn’t
they become uncontrollable and therein lies an interesting word you know
because because I hear a lot of people say you know how do you cope how does it
has it was it looked like you know what’s a typical day like I suppose you
could probably a in line people how do you cope with those difficult times do
you have any experiences love it yeah well let me just share a cue that
homeschooling what most people do ninety percent of parents today when they
homeschool they do what schools do they buy a curriculum and they force or
manipulator coerce or however gently it’s done they’re doing what schools do
the same kind of curricula but at home so the environment may be different but
they’re doing the same thing and forced learning and all of the trappings that
come with that authoritarian paradigm are still present so unschooling is
completely doing away with the authoritarian paradigm altogether but
what it looks like is different in every home that’s the interesting thing is and
it looks different from day to day I mean I guess you could say that what
most people do on weekends with their free time if they could do anything they
want when they have a break from all the things that they’re forced to do all day
every day both adults and children that’s what unschooling looks like every
day for my family and so it’s like just living every day as though it’s summer
vacation but I think because most people are just decompressing when they have a
day off you know the average person who has a child in the system and who goes
to work in a cubicle all day every day doing things they don’t like they just
want to decompress and just kind of zone out where you know the life that we live
is really different we facilitate our children’s interests based on whatever
their passions are so I mean you know from something that you’re super
interested in like you love learning about it you can’t get enough of it you
learn every single thing that you can about that that thing and when somebody
loves you and cares about you they bring more into your life to learning growth
on based on love and that’s exactly what unschooling looks like to us all day
every day so am I just in something I bring as many resources into their lives
to learn and grow from based on that interest so you say it doesn’t sound as
though I don’t get the impression that it’s particularly hard work for you you
you’ve obviously a choir a level of it sounds like a fair form of parenting if
that’s an appropriate phrase would you agree with that
I mean I think in the sake of not controlling another person all day every day
maybe it’s joyful and it’s easier than controlling somebody however
it’s definitely not for the lazy parent because you have to be actively involved
you have to be facilitating its to be completely hands-off and not facilitate
their interest is neglectful and it’s not really taking the role of an
unschooling parent so the way that you should take it and
when you have interested thing you have to jump on that they’re showing engine
learning something and they’re showing interesting that is the time when
they’re ripe and ready to learn about it so no matter what you’re doing when
you’re home with your kids and they’re showing that interest your main role is
to get up and okay like how can we do this together how can we learn more
roads are an example for the listeners to understand my son Devon when he was
the interesting thing was three or four years old he started to show an interest
in fire like he wanted to light matches he saw somebody light a lighter and he
wanted to do it and I think most parents initial reaction would be to say no you
you can’t do that you can’t touch that you’re too little and you could get hurt
however a child’s need for freedom and growth will override their parents need
for obedience like almost everything it’s so shared shouldn’t they associate
I mean whenever right when it’s always you interrupt your flow but whenever I
see parent convenience trumping that or squashing that consumes his box it seems
a shame doesn’t it sir and so that is you know rules enforce and kind of
ignoring that out of fear to me that is more lazy and more hands-off than saying
okay well my child has a real need right now to learn and grow from this so how
can i facilitate it safely while meeting my own needs so he would sit in the
cellar for hours and he would we have a big wood furnace in the cellar that’s
connected to every heating vent in the house and so we sat down there and he
just lit match after match after match and lit some cardboard boxes on fire
safely and he loved it he would sit at the kitchen table we would put aluminum
foil on the table and he would light candles and play with the wax and I
think the hard thing for parents today is the whole idea of being present that
rules are a replacement for being there mm-hmm you know and they’re never
guaranteed there’s always awful side effects because kids are going to put
their own instinctual need for growth and learning before your need for
obedience always and so that’s when things get really dangerous and kids go
behind parents backs and play with fire and that’s what bad things happen and
when you’re present and you’re connected there really is there something
so I think it’s really important to understand that now my son today he’s a
blacksmith and he is also he also fire twirls and he is very connected with
fire is this Devon was this this yeah yeah and he’s here right now meet my son
Devon’s 18 and he’s here with his girlfriend visiting for a week and he
had moved to Virginia for about a year down with her family four and four
months ago or so so this is the first time I’ve seen him in a long time and we
were talking about this okay yeah and so um you know I would say that it’s I
think a lot of people might with the absence of control the absence of
punishments and the absence of the authoritarian paradigm a parent or a
person that isn’t aware of a partnership based paradigm might assume that it must
be a less it was a fair kind of hands-off approach but truly it’s way
more involved than an authoritarian approach so to me what the parfaits
paradigm is and this is all connected on schooling I’m gonna pull it all together
for you in a second because there’s so many components to this philosophical
perspective and parenting is a huge part of it
so the other schooling portion I think a lot of people really get the freedom
with education mm-hmm but it’s inside of it I think it’s a little bit harder for
people to wrap their heads around for sure and the poverty is so much more
24/7 isn’t it I mean by definition you you haven’t got rid of your children in
inverted commas get rid of you know Park them somewhere for six hours or eight
hours or whatever it lives they’re there their day is to school them back
i I know from from a lot of parents here in the UK that they really value that
time and it’s very difficult to if any parent or potential program was thinking
about homeschooling unschooling or anything like that I think it’s quite
difficult for them to imagine how they could possibly sort of you know find the
time to do all this and be giving 24/7 to to the child’s needs and being
presents and aware of what are their interests I think that a lot of
newcomers this topic might might think I gotta and you do but do you have any any
experiences or words of wisdom that you could throw to that sort of thought I
honestly you know going back to what I said before I
really believe that it’s the whole idea of parents are trained to train and
control their kids and so the idea I think the idea of controlling them for
eight more hours a day when you’re getting a break from doing something
extremely unpleasant and I don’t care what anyone has told you or conditioned
you to believe whoever’s listening parenting is not supposed to feel that
way it’s not supposed to feel like something that you like need this
enormous break from what you need a break from is controlling other humans
it’s a very negative miserable existence and you don’t have to do it but people
don’t know what to do instead and so I think that’s probably the most important
focus of my work and what I write about the partnership based paradigm so I’m
just gonna share with you briefly mm-hmm between the authoritarian paradigm in
the partnership and I make you ready to that yes yes please okay so with the
authoritarian paradigm the focus is on meeting the parents needs solely it’s
focused on meeting the authority’s needs and how to work these little people
around into our lives so they’re convenient and not causing us too much
grief I’ve too much inconvenience basically but the partnership based
paradigm is based on meeting the needs of everybody in the family equally and
so that is a lot more work and it takes a lot more creativity because my goal is
not obedience for my children I’m not raising kids to be obedient to fall into
the role of being controlled by other authorities once they leave our home I
want them to be free thinking people free thinking logic numerous free
thinking people who have had modeled to them that everybody’s needs matter
equally mmm-hmm because you learn what they live and we hear that terms so much
in our culture but people don’t really think about it very much because what a
lot of your modeling to your kids when you’re controlling them all day and
sharing with them that the adults needs matter well you’re training them to live
that way and they say but they can’t wait to be adults because they can then
finally control other people and it’s a really there’s so many layers of
dysfunction that comes with that style they’re wrong I think one of the one the
interesting a practical upshot some peopled often don’t realizes is that we
sort of we pay lip service to the idea want to raise children to be able to
make decisions to be able to manage their lives to be able to be functional
and it seems that when children go through the conventional education I’m
you know the very great parallels between the UK and the American system
but but but but you you you end up coming out the other end and you’re
expected to know what to do and you’ve been told what to do all those years
it’s but you’re suddenly burst it’s supposed to land on your feet like a cat
you know alright ready ready to decide how to live my life and you kind of
haven’t really almost children going through school I don’t think I’ve had a
full opportunity to sort of flex flexible or spread their wings you know
and really give it a go they read they’re living somebody else’s agenda
all day every day and they’re conditioned to do so and the time that
they have to pursue their own passions become so small that they forget that
that even exists because you know when the authoritarian paradigm were raised
to please others were raised to do what they say and when we’re obedient good
kids then we’re done and we’re loved and then we can love ourselves and without
that really is damaging because then we’re turning to others constantly for
approval and did I do okay and no did you love me and please tell me I’m good
and we’re constantly craving praise and focus and attention when none of those
are supposed to just innately be part of our earth inner being we don’t need to
be searching for outward sources for that my kids don’t have to do that
they’ve never been conditioned to do that mmm so herpes paradigm
unlike the authoritarian paradigm that’s focused on behavior modification
calleman say in the UK with super nanny nanny 9-1-1 that you know with the whole
nanny series that we see over that was brought to America focused on obedience
in the authoritarian paradigm the whole idea and focus of behavior modification
is is just like dog training isn’t it it sounds so true and it’s horrific
when you say it like that yeah it’s just like dog training and I don’t think
people realize it and even I think a lot of dog training school the dog so that’s
another whole whole topic but to focus like when I watch that show I watch it
for a research perspective to see and I know it’s well-intentioned so let me
just say that the parents that go on there
looking for help and you know the nanny the nannies that are on those shows
they’re well-intentioned but their focus they’re totally a meshed in the
authoritarian paradigm and how to control kids better how to control kids
more gently gentle discipline control isn’t gentle control of any form control
isn’t peaceful control isn’t tainted it’s not modeling a peaceful world where
everybody’s needs matter where we respect each other so children’s rights
around the forefront of everything that I do and I think it’s really on the
forefront of human evolution right now that we need this awful cycle of
narcissism people think that the answer is more control like when you hear an
out-of-control violent kid the first thing people say are oh they don’t have
their ass whooped enough you know like it’s just instantly thought of that
they’re not treated with enough control when in fact these children are just
modeling what is done to them every single day so absolutely through this
whole perspective it’s to let for the whole idea of behavior modification
altogether because it’s not just it’s not it’s not right it’s it’s something
that kids are course they’re gonna rebelled against it’s something you
would Ravel against if your partner somebody somebody that you loved into
you you never stand for it ever it’s it’s it’s the whole concept the whole
authoritarian paradigm altogether needs to be dropped and a new paradigm
embraced and so partnership based paradigm focuses not on behavior but on
the needs under the behavior right however yeah though the wonderful side
of doing so is that the behavior changes when the needs are met indeed this is a
really key point this is something that I’ve even been noticing in my day to day
life these days is that you know sometimes events in
life sort of take over and my wife and I find that we get distracted we have
three young children of nine seven and five and we find that when we’re not
spending enough time focusing on them as opposed to managing our lives in our
home and our you know opposition what we’re doing as soon as we seem to not
give them enough attention things seem to
kick off if you like for want of a better word and and and we get signs of
their frustration and their needs not getting met so that’s that’s an
interesting one I’m in forever sort of becoming aware of these things and try
to learn to give me their needs totally I love that you’re in that space of
awareness about it because that’s something that people are excited to
learn about because it really is like this secret that’s been kept from so
many people because those in power really want to train us to control our
kids because life will be easier for everybody and you know in authority when
the kids are already trained up to to obey and you know kind of commit to
there there are there are sorry to interview but there are frightening
implications on their of a society of schools children that are that are sort
of compliant and unthinking listen we’re almost almost ready to just spout out
what everybody else thinks rather than becoming thinking functional individuals
on they but go on sorry I was just wondering whether you could share with
us some of your ideas about you know when there are conflicts and and when
you know there’s arguments over this is mine or that’s yours or somebody’s
hitting somebody else because they’re frustrating them what sort of techniques
to do have you used because because I know a lot of a lot of parents are sort
of concerned about how do you how do you manage it how do you I mean I know we’re
not trying to control them we’ve already discussed that so how does it what does
that look like when you are trying to run the house and the kids are at each
other’s throats I don’t know whether you ever had that but we’ve certainly had
our kids I don’t think we realize how conditioned do we are until something
like this comes up and I’m gonna share with you what I mean when we were
misbehaving as kids are we would people were angry with us for doing so when we
were angry we weren’t allowed to be any content or happy if we were angry our
feelings are bad negative feelings were very inconvenient for the adults in our
lives and we were sent away it was met with anger and hostility that we were
inconveniencing them with our with our anger and so the worst thing a parent
can do is get angry when your kids are angry
and people have to realize that they have to be the rock they have to be that
solid person to hold the space for their kids anchor and not lose your own Center
I mean that’s huge I’m a doula I’ve been a doula for about 17 years I’m attending
births is something that I’m very passionate about I’ve been to the births
of hundreds of babies and when I’m with a woman in labor going through
transition like right before pushing when things get really intense for a lot
of women and they start saying things like I can’t do this anymore like I
can’t do it I hated this is awful I’m gonna die or whatever
women often spout out during that time I know in my mind that that’s really
normal and that’s what happens before pushing and I’m not afraid I’m not angry
I’m not angry with the woman for panicking I hold the space and the and I
literally tell myself I get excited and stay positive like this is amazing it’s
exactly what’s supposed to happen and I will hold that energy for her mm-hmm now
what would happen if instead of me doing that what if I met her energy and
started saying things like oh my god what’s happening oh my god I’m petrified
with happening even I mean seriously think about it
like it would make experience it would lately alter the entire expense for her
where things would get Helly they had asked things would be dysfunctional
complications would come up it would take something that’s really normal that
just needed to be allowed and respected and turn it into an enormous thing that
the implications of which could be very incredibly intense and negative so I
take that same idea when I’m working with parents to say to encourage them to
hold the space for their kids and when their kids start fighting take a deep
breath maintain yourself don’t lose your joyful energy you just had when you were
dancing around the kitchen listening to music approach it like and and that that
alone approaching something with the positive mindset of not getting upset or
inconvenience this is your job as a parent to do that you wouldn’t believe
how quickly the negativity dissipates and you’re just there so if you’re
hitting each other obviously I’m gonna go and gently you know please don’t
reach other but you want to be and say to them like how can I help this
the first thing I ask is this something I hope very often times parents get mad
at the perpetrator angry yeah what are you doing to your brother and I mean
like it’s just normal because you you react and but you don’t know the whole
story you don’t know what happened and very
little more than likely the younger one or the one that that wasn’t that you
know that was the victim probably hit the other one before you even saw and so
I think it’s really important to like to be balanced for that situation approach
it and just like how can I help mindset and be very loving and it’ll
just it’s it’s amazing how kids get over it and they’re best friends two seconds
later you notice that well yes it’s it’s amazing it’s a I I went you know just
with some of the things you’re sharing there I noticed a lot of the challenges
that I face I mean it is I think the whole hope education and unschooling
paradigm is is one where parents have to have to really embrace the sort of a
whole life thing isn’t it not something you can compartmentalize off you know I
was just going to educate our children now in a lot of people people in England
tend to their first impression of homeschooling is that we have this desk
and Annabelle goes off and we’re at nine o’clock we sit down do maths and and you
know this is always the first illusion we have to dispel whenever we speak to
to any people about home education but yeah I’m fascinated as well cuz because
in the broader context I I can’t help thinking that it’s thinking we need more
of we need more in individuals that are prepared to you know think for
themselves and it seems that your whole approach very much feeds into that I
mean perhaps you can talk to a little bit about Devon who said is it 18 now I
mean so you’ve sort of gone the distance really haven’t you you’ve come out the
other end if you like you know in a numerical sense perhaps you can tell us
a little bit about that oh yeah I mean you know one thing that I could share is
that think it’s so important to tap into who you were and what you felt when you
were a child self because I spend I do spend a lot of
time thinking and remembering and feeling and I think that’s so important
is knowing being compassionate and empathetic about how your children are
responding to you and what they’re really getting out of it what a children
learn from punishments they don’t learn the intention that you think they’re
learning they’re learning anger and resentments and things are building and
so I think that doesn’t work if punishments worked people wouldn’t have
to keep doing them sure what about do you use them trade as an alternative
obviously the conventional model is you punish and give them a disincentive to
repeat so so does the your unschooling approach focus more on a reward
are you offering like a trade if you do this I’ll do that or something some
people call it bribery what’s your purpose you can look into that if you
wanted to get one of your children to maybe help cut the lawn or help with the
shopping how would you maybe try to make that
bring about if we’re not forcing them and not controlling them today the
interesting thing is I would do it the same way as I would if you were visiting
me my kids I see Nigel at his family were out the house and I needed a hand
with something I might be like hey would you mind coming and helping me with
dinner mmm any help and if you couldn’t you’d be like I’m in the middle of this
but no maybe my partner could help you my kids and you would work together as a
team to get it done even if you weren’t available so it’s the same fantastic
that is so that’s so cool I mean I that that sounds so obvious you know I’ve
heard people talk about the Isao ideas and ideal for me because I’ve not yet
got there but treating my children as though they were distinguished visitors
from another culture and and and and we know that makes sense I mean the way you
just described it makes so much sense but it’s it’s very tool to remember and
I guess that feeds into what you’re saying about being present yeah exactly
yeah I mean and yeah and so it’s really common sense and I think one thing I
love to share is that I don’t think I’m necessarily I mean I might be offering a
new perspective and ideas and paradigm however I think that a lot of people
know this and I think that’s why they’re so receptive to what I share because
there was something in side of you that knew all this is truth
when you were little you know and it’s almost like a wake awakening and
validating these feelings that maybe you had very deep down for so long because
that’s why it makes such sense this is just common sense of respect for other
human beings and it is thing isn’t it amazing that we do need someone what do
you see I I tend to you know with the the theme of this podcast living outside
the matrix there’s so many of those commonly accepted myths that you just
the most people just go along never even thinking do you have to do that you know
with with schooling it’s it’s an obvious one isn’t it and it’s it’s like
believing all of the other you know tidal wave of sort of commonly accepted
truths which are slowly being shattered I mean here we are you know talking
about a concept outside of just mainstream education and and and there’s
so many other myths like you know fat makes you fat and cholesterol cause of
heart you know these are all being being being exploded these days which is
really exciting so so so I see this in that greater context of trying to try to
confront people’s conditioning and get them into thinking gosh you know do we
need to keep doing this this way do we need to keep forcing children and and
this whole new paradigm at paradigm mother is so exciting isn’t it this
whole limb it’s so so exciting and I think when we get to the root of why
things are done the way they are we realize that it’s for the convenience
and ease of those in control and also for money you know that’s always at the
root when I talk about birth advocacy and home birth for example like when you
learn the history of white birth moved into the hospital and the money money
making business that it is you understand I you know this is an
alternative for home birth and how it can be safe and why it is safe and I
really think the same is true for parenting and not using the institution
of school and not buying into the authoritarian paradigm that was really
just designed to control you and so when you stand that you learned that there is
another whole way to be so so my son Devin who is 18 has never been to school
not one day has never been punished not even slightly wow I have to just quickly
deject here so it’s break your throw bone I have to say my hat’s off to you
because I haven’t having been a homeschool
parent myself for a while you know I’ve wrestled with my own conditioning which
has been authoritarian authoritative and and I I confess I have punished my
children I do confess that I have you know not hit them but you know I just
get so wound up allowing it’s allowing a situation to get the better of me and
you know losing that focus and that presence so I take my hat you know say
yeah and I’ve no doubt cause to doubt you of course but and I think a lot of
other parents would say that be really hard to do oh yeah definitely and so
we’ve never taken something away from them that belonged belong to them as
punishment and ever we’ve never grounded them we’ve never
forbid them from doing something or seeing someone and or going somewhere
and they’ve always had complete freedom with bedtimes hygiene food media
technology they’ve never had any limits put on any of those things they’ve
always had complete freedom surrounding them and the interesting thing is when
people hear that they get really nervous I always feel the interviewers like oh
my god like it’s because your mind starts going like assuming that it’s
gonna be complete chaos and overuse of something and what happens instead is
the same way that you and I are living we have balance with most things I mean
any of our dysfunction or anything that we don’t have balance with when you
really trace it back it’s usually due to some kind of glitch in the way we were
raised or some kind of unresolved issue or commune or something but humans find
balance with freedom and so it’s through freedom that kids find balance and
healthy boundaries and their own limitations and so forth so Devin being
18 he was raised from day one like this I’ve never done it any other way and for
me this has just all been completely natural I don’t know where it came from
I don’t know why it just has and all I’ve done is share my journey from the
beginning of what I was doing different and people just started to take notice
and then we became an advocate and Here I am 20 years later you know almost 20
years later and it wasn’t something I planned I just was like public you don’t
have to control a child to get them to to be good people mm-hmm a lot is just
you see you know our culture focuses on assuming negative intent from other is
assuming negative intent from our kids we are set from day one with the
assumption that our kids are trying to manipulate us right down to only feed
them every two hours don’t pick them up too much when they cry they’ll get used
to it they’re gonna manipulate you it’s like it’s our lives yeah the idea the
idea that you know a baby lying in its cot can have malicious intent
it’s a to be a rapping mum around its finger it is very sad really isn’t it
yeah and hearing parents think that it’s heartbreaking and to assume that they’ve
been so conditioned to control themselves to believe that because
instinctually we don’t feel that way when you Anita tribes and you see people
that have been untouched by this whole conditioning it would be completely
insane to not hold the child all day every day when they’re in their new bars
it’d be insane not they wanted to eat so we have been conditioned and trained to
believe these obscenely ridiculous notions but when you believe them long
enough from day one you just assumed negative intent all the time I mean how
many times can you remember Nigel being a little boy and have him getting blamed
for things that weren’t your fault yeah you know it was a very hopeless feeling
of just that it liked feeding and that no one ever really knew you because they
assumed you were bad and after a while and I was just talking to Tiffany about
this in the car actually just today just a couple hours ago I was talking about a
friend of hers who’s 17 who was grounded for something she didn’t do and I was
talking about if you tell a child a human being along enough that they’re
bad both by your energy of assuming negative intent and through punishing
eventually just friggin surrender and say okay with bad people and you become
that you lie cheat and steal and you say nobody believes in me I am I am
obviously a bad person you literally merge into that role because children
naturally believe their parents like even if they’re rebelling against them
you’re hearing those tapes constantly from teachers and parents is that your
bad as and you literally it changes who you are Izzy you have the part of the
parent Duncan do unconsciously negatively
conditioning their children annoying aware they’re doing it yeah exactly
there’s this thing called the rice experiment that I did years ago and put
it on my blog and it’s when you there’s two jars of rice and I’m one jar you
label I love you and the next jar you label I hate you and every day you pick
up one of the jars and say I love you and you focus positive energy on it and
then you pick up the other jar and Saint hates you and you consciously focus
negative energy on it I can send you the link if you want to check it out yeah
nice that said I hate you was molded and mildewy within a couple like weeks
the other one was perfectly into what I’m talking about here no matter what
you believe some people might be hearing me being like oh God here comes the new
AG stuff but I’m serious if you’re looking at another human being today
everyday thinking they’re bad people and they’re a thin you assume negative
intent and you’re looking at them if they’re trying to manipulate you you
literally change that human being you change that human even if you never even
spoke to them you would change them as a person so how we feel about our kids has
to be we need to rekindle this inner knowing that they’re good people from
day one assume positive so if I could say anything is that I’ve always assumed
positive intent for my kids and I think that’s a very natural thing to do yeah
that’s amazing does that does dessert so again I’m interrupting you but does does
that must have a very it must have a very positive effect on your
relationship with your children because because when we’re when we’re stuck in a
authoritarianism hardly the situation with ones who’d work then to go through
adolescence if you’re an adversary to them because then they’re never going to
come to you with any issues that they really want to discuss and it looks like
I’m gonna i’m sure you’ve got things to say about it but but that that most most
influential thing you’ve got I imagine is is your relationship with with your
children and and you must be in a much better position to be able to you know
relate with them in a useful as a friend as that
that well it was it any other that you were partner on you said yeah yeah
you’re hugely influential when you’re not in an authoritarian paradigm because
you’ve built the solid foundation of trust and your children aren’t afraid to
be themselves because they know you’re not gonna take any of their freedoms
away when the if the originally inherit on kids can’t be authentic with their
parents because their freedom is always dangled in front of them of being taken
away constantly and it’s a really negative experience kids are not they
might want to tell you things but they’re too fearful of having their
freedom taken away in any way shape or form whether it’s grounding whether it’s
being judged and looked at negatively that used to kill me I hated while my
parents with mattock mm-hmm so I would avoid the truth even though I probably
should have told them sometimes because I didn’t want them to look at me as a
bad person and then have that kind of negative energy toward me because I was
highly sensitive and it really killed me to look at me like that
and so even if it’s subtle I mean letting go of judgment and seeing your
children as whole perfect people the way they are they they aren’t afraid that
they’re not afraid of being punished they’re not afraid of being controlled
so they I mean it’s crazy to see my kids tell me everything but they really do I
mean there’s not a topic that we haven’t talked about like people just shock
there are conversations and I mean sometimes this stuff even I’m like okay
do I really need to hear this you know it’s even I’m the one with a discomfort
sometimes it goes into that territory and not only today to tell me everything
I mean I want them to have their privacy to like I don’t I don’t expect that my
son has a girlfriend they’ve had a serious relationship for years that’s
not my business like I don’t want to hear anything personal but they are the
they come to me I’m the first they come to if they have a question about
something to do with sex or and like my daughter coming to me saying they she
went to the fair the other night with some new friends that lived around here
and they all go to school and they’re at their parents is really punitive Lee and
she said I was with this girl and she like we were looking at some rings and
then when we left the booth she showed me and she said how I snatched this and
she said by the dog that still that like why what’s the point why would you do
that like she you tells me everything and I said well some kids do it for the
rush they they can they want to feel that
some kids do it out of rebellion they just have kind of fuck the world kind of
energy they just like want they want to hurt because they’re not allowed mhmmm
there’s so much built-up resentment which I can tap into from my own youth
like I know what that feels like mm-hmm that’s so great it’s a beauty to
be able to have those be able to have those things offered and be able to
build a conversation around that that’s such a bomb doesn’t they’re so real
because because because whatever the issue is then you know the child you
know living life learning as they go on whatever the issue they face they’re
going to come back to you on they which is just wonderful that’s them it doesn’t
sound like the average parenting experience by quite a long way it’s not
money hurt for my kids kind of in this world sometimes because my daughter you
know there are added challenges when they get older because you know she said
to me she said I don’t like that I don’t like that they do that they were some of
them worse worse spitting at somebody and some of them were just being mean
and bullying somebody she said mom what am I gonna find some just normal friends
and people that are just nice and cool to hang out with like she’s like I don’t
want to just doesn’t wanna smoke weed she doesn’t want to steal but all of
these kids every routine her age they’re doing something like that and so there
is the challenge if you don’t have a lot of on schoolers or kids that are
apparent to this way in your area it’s really important to build on these
communities because being on the forefront of change and that we’re kind
of pioneers living this life my kids are now they’re dealing with it and they’re
coping with it but they’re good friends that are also parented this way I live
in New York which is a five hour drive away and this life isn’t all rainbows
and unicorns you know oh yeah there’s challenges and so these are these are
the challenges I’m facing now how to help my daughter navigate these
friendships because she’s like well I like these people and they enjoy being
with me and I like them but I just don’t know if I should be friends with them or
not so so those are the kind of discussions that we’re having right now
surrounding the older teens yeah there must be must be great to to actually
feel that you can you can be there for your children in a way that I think most
conventional parents probably feel they’re not and in probably in reality
that they’re not what I was going to say is do you think do you see radical on
schooling in indeed home schooling in general what is
it is it catching on in the States is it is it a growing thing I think it
goes through growth spurts it’s really interesting like I’ll see a huge wave of
it we’ve been on in the media involved in different television shows of that
people that have had a song based on bread upon schooling we were on dr. Phil
twelve years ago my first television appearance ever speaking about this life
and after it aired there was a huge surge of it for like a year and a half
after and we were on the show Nightline and a dozen shows the show wife swap
which I think you have over there too actually
yeah and so which is not what it sounds so every time we’re in the media I do
see a really big surge of it and right now we’re kind of like it’s not really
that huge at the moment as far as the unschooling goes peaceful parenting
people are looking for like the parenting side of it whether they have
kids in school or not I’m seeing way more people I think wake up I think once
Trump was elected it really wolf people to have you know to a lot of negative
things that are going on and people want different and they want change and they
want to empower them something they want peace and freedom so because some
freedom are starting to get a little strangled over here and people are
really fearful of losing that they’re rushing to the resources available to
introduce that into their lives of their families so a huge surge with peaceful
parenting on school is something you know it’s something that a lot of people
I think are really open to weigh more than the parenting so I do think it’s
more common it’s great sorry certainly growing over here in the
in the in the UK so I didn’t mean to interrupt you get yeah it’s a it so it’s
definitely a growing movement over here but but but not massively fast it still
a very you know fringe movement if you like and and it seems to be also sort of
frowned upon by by the authorities it doesn’t seem to be you know particularly
removing children from school we know we know people in in our community over
here and then the young homeschooling home education community who have maybe
had difficulties within school so so they had to take
their children out there maybe you know just not working with the authoritarian
method or area any other sort of challenges it’s actually quite difficult
to extricate your children from school in the UK it’s it’s it’s better to have
never never really started but some do I’m conscious of time at the moment you
want to maybe speak to do you know of any tips for any parents that might be
thinking about doing this I know you’ve got a great book on on radical on
schooling maybe you could talk about that yeah any sort of tips that you’d
throw out there for people considering it I mean there’s a lot of great books
on both both topics if you do a search on Amazon friends going to some great
books there my book of radical and schooling a revolution has begun is
available on Amazon you could also buy it directly from me I do parenting
coaching which is really I’m usually pretty booked up I have a lot of people
that are really interested in learning how to apply this to different age
groups and to their family life so that’s that’s an offering I have a
YouTube channel my family has a YouTube channel called the sparkling Martins and
in partnership with make her Disney for our channel which is really cool because
that means that Disney is promoting it’s going and eugenics like one of our
biggest resources and so there’s tons of videos I have about 50 plus interviews
about this and different all the TV’s most of the TV appearances we’ve been on
are all on that playlist on our channel called the Ratigan schooling revolution
and the only show that’s not on there ABC be pulling it down and let the
viewers and listeners know your your website address as well and if you
mentioned that it’s Dana Martin calm and I can I post articles to it and there’s
videos and so I think if you started with my website you’d have a lot of
great just a lot of good ideas of how to apply this life and the options so I
want to be available to you so anytime anybody has a question you could find me
on Facebook to just Dana Martin you could find me on there and follow me and
all my contact infos on the website so there’s so many different resources out
there and happening I think in England I was just there so I spoke in Scotland we
had a good turnout for the talk there and it was really powerful to see
so many parents in Scotland being ready and open for this life they started a
Facebook group called our retic lum school in Scotland and there’s already a
radical in schooling England you okay so great growing steady so that was where
he was speaking in Scotland you it was radical on schooling Scotland the the
event okay oh yeah the Facebook group was born out of the event so the event
there somebody brought me there so I’ll be going there again next year and back
to England to speak as well so I look forward we’re doing a conference in
London next year. — Excellent, so thank you very much to my
very special guest on this episode, Dana Martin, and thank you very much for
listening. Please, as always, feel free to join in the conversation in the comments
section below, and I do hope you join me again for another episode of Living
Outside the Matrix. Until then I wish you well. Music: “Awaken”, from the album “Living Outside the Matrix”, download here: