#teqsa2017 Ralph Wolff’s Keynote Address: Major Higher Education Trends in the US

September 20, 2019 0 By Ronny Jaskolski


>>DEB VERHOEVEN:
Oh sorry, I introduced him, will you please welcome Ralph. [Applause].>>RALPH WOLFF:
Thank you, good morning. I’m delighted to be here, my first time in
Australia and I confess I’m still a little jetlagged, so I need the lectern in case I
get woozy. I just flew in the other day. I understand that the TEQSA conference last year came right at the election, so I get to report, I, I have the opportunity, I won’t
say it’s a privilege, but an opportunity to report what’s happened in the past year. I want to thank Anthony who is on the Advisory Board for the quality assurance comments that I created, and I’ll be talking a bit about
that. And I’ve gotten to get to know his work through the Equality Beyond Boundaries Group, and I really appreciate his work and the work
of TEQSA. So I’m delighted to be here and I must also
say I prepared a talk, um, before I listened to the session yesterday, and I got depressed by my own talk about what’s happened in the last year. So I’m going to focus not only on what’s happening in the Trump administration, with respect particularly to higher education, but then
what’s inspiring me, because I need as much inspiration as anyone else in the country. And there actually is a lot going on I’d like
to highlight and we share so many issues that you have, that I heard yesterday, I thought
it might be helpful. I think it’s really important just to say
that much of the US is still stunned, in despair and depressed, and those are the ones who
obviously did not vote for President Trump. And there is still a very solid core of 32
to 36%, it’s gone down a little bit in the past year, but a very solid core of those
who remain adamantly in support of him. It would be easy to say that those who support him are only those without education, but there were demographics that belie that, including members of my own family, a nephew of mine and his wife who, both of whom have university degrees, he has an MBA. And there is no explaining it, but it’s caused
major divisions in families being unable to talk to one another, who voted differently. What we are witnessing a year in is a very
deliberate and methodical deconstruction of the very concept of a progressive State, which has actually been part of Republican and Democratic administrations for the last four Presidents. We can certainly say that Steve Bannon who was President Trump’s campaign advisor, head of campaign strategy, became chief of strategy in the White House, now left, but has spoken often about wanting to create chaos and to
destroy what they call the deep state or the administrative state. There is a methodical way in which that is
being done, that one year in seems to be the approach, which is, number one, not to fill
senior level positions in every major cabinet position. Number two, is to quickly nominate and approve where the Republican control congress, a whole large group of vacant judicial appointments, federal appointees for life, who are Republican, not necessarily Republican, but are highly
conservative, including one who had never been in a court room, had never litigated
a case, but who was, happened to be the husband of somebody working in the White House who had a law degree. I’m sure you’re aware that, um, science doesn’t have a home in the White House, there is no senior level White House advisor on science matters, which has always been a major position. And of course you know that climate change denial is rampant; there is not a single Republican Member of Congress who publicly will acknowledge there is climate change. And of course there is, Rick Perry, the Secretary of the Department of Energy, and Scott Pruitt, the former Attorney General of Oklahoma who is the Head of the Environmental Protection Agency, both of whom are actively working
to both deny climate change and to ignore, overrule recommendations of their own staff that have scientific foundation. And even had, the staff even published a report in Scientific Community, acknowledging the increase in climate change incidents. And not withstanding that and other findings with respect to carcinogenic implications of particular, um, pesticides and the like,
had gone ahead and acted regardless of the scientific findings. It’s not easy for those of who believed in
the power of education, those of us who believed in the power of the progressive State that
would, and that the values of the United States, which would be open to all comers, and an
immigrant nation, one that has the Statue of Liberty as a beacon of hope. The desire to pull out of the Paris Accord,
pulling out of NAFTA, the Transpacific Partnership, I could go on and on. The very version of America first is something that was first used, by pro-Nazis in the 1930s. So many of us don’t believe that it was by
accident that that term is being used. And there is deep concern, um, not unlike
the Tweets or the re-Tweets that occurred overnight, if you saw that, that the President of the United States is open to, if not actively supportive of, white nationalism and neo-Nazi groups. It’s not a pretty sight for many of us; let’s
just say, um, and at the same time, um, we all need to work toward a common future. The divisions in the US are very challenging, particularly in Congress, to have anything accomplished between the Democrats and the Republicans. I should say the Republicans themselves are splintered, which is why there’s been very little legislative achievement in the past
year. And the Democrats are still split between
the Bernie Sanders progressive wing and the more moderate wing. Hilary Clinton no longer has really any influence and the publication of her book I don’t think helped much in terms of the support from the Democratic Party. That being said, there are people worried
that, is there an alternative, um, if you saw the New Yorker article on the Vice President, there are those who would say that, um, the devil that you know may be better than the
one you don’t know. So, in that environment, let me speak about
the Department of Education with whom I work and have worked for some time. Betsy DeVos, you may know is the Secretary, her background is that she is that she is a billionaire, um, and worked very assiduously in Michigan to bring federal, or excuse me, State funds for charter schools, uh, for Christian charter schools, uh, public funds, and was able to get passed an experiment where in
Detroit charter schools were opened up with, um, it depends on who’s research you follow, some say they were successful and some say highly unsuccessful. She has no experience in public policy and
education at a national level, nor any experience whatsoever with higher education. I do know people who have talked with her
and she openly acknowledges that. And it is clear that higher education is neither her priority nor is it President Trump’s. Most recently, um, at a talk, she questioned
our continuing policy to promote degrees, um, there has been a deliberate effort to
overturn every Obama regulation of the last eight years and one of the things that President Obama made as a national priority was to move our degree holder rate of adults in the US
from under, slightly under 40% to 60% by 2020. We no longer hear anything about that goal
of increasing the number of degree holders. There is, um, one thing that the administration is very concerned about, which is jobs, jobs, blue-collar work particularly, whether it’s
in the coal country or in the, let’s call it the rust belt in the middle of the US. The challenge is that 90% of the jobs that
were created since the recession in 2008, 90% require a college degree, at least an
associate degree, many a Bachelors degree. The data is overwhelming about lifetime earnings, social mobility of those who hold a degree, it’s far greater than, the unemployment rate
for high school graduates is double that, uh, even as the unemployment rate has gone down, it has not gone down as much. The number of jobs are shrinking for those
without secondary higher education. So that is the, I should say other thing that
just came out was that, uh, we’re not sure how, whether this will be a trend, the United
States has been number one in terms of international enrolments, for the first time in 2016 those
enrolments went down largely, um, community colleges, which have been doing a lot of international recruiting and in Masters programmes. Over 80% of doctoral students in the sciences are international students in the US. I think a startling statistic about, we’re
training the scientists to leave the US, because there is really not as much a place for them
around key issues, as there was in the past. And of course we, along with many other countries, have proved or have moved to be against immigration, um, not only building a wall that President
Trump promised, promised on the southern border, uh, but also, um, the limitation of HP1 visas, which allows professionals to come in and to do work, primarily for Google and Apple
and the tech companies. I should say one other trend, um, one of the
things the Obama administration did was really, uh, focus on abuses, alleged abuses, in the
for-profit industry. At the time the for-profits were enrolling
about 12% of the student population and there were a number of very large, 100,000 plus,
publicly traded companies in the 1990s when the doors were opened and more for-profit
education… The stocks of these companies were the fastest growing of any. And the efforts, rightly or wrongly, because
there were some concerns about federal overreach, during the Obama years two major enterprises closed, Corinthian College with 70,000 students, closed overnight, out on the street the students, and ITT closed overnight, 44,000 students, by actions of the US Department of Education under the Obama administration. There is a Defensive Borrower Statute, which means if you can claim and prove fraud on the part of your provider, you will get a
full tuition refund. There are 1,000s of claims that have been
filed as a result of these and other closings and one of the actions that, um, the Department of Education has done is sit on them and very few have been processed in the past year. The last data I saw I believe it was 70,000
applications. The Obama administration also put a great
deal of attention on sexual violence, sexual harassment, issued a set of, Dear Colleague Letters of Regulations, as a major issue and you may have seen not only the conversation yesterday with the film, The Hunting Ground, but the AAU, the premier research university, did a survey, 20 to 25% of women across the board felt or reported, or those who reported, uh, that they had been impacted by sexual, either harassment or assault. A smaller percentage claimed to be assaulted or raped. But it’s a major problem. Again, the, um, DeVos administration has brought in a senior lawyer for this department who was quoted as having said that the problem is really one of booze and remorse six months later. So you can imagine, um, and there was some quite considerable confusion about, uh, what the Obama administration has done, so I will say it’s not a perfect record. The challenge is that there’s no one to talk
to in the department, since there are no senior level officials, there’s no declaration of
high-read policy and, uh, therefore it’s a very large policy vacuum. So as you can understand, as I prepared my remarks I thought that, um, I myself got depressed, and I really, I’m aware of the fact and I
worked both extensively in the US as a Head of an accrediting agency up until a few years ago with the creation of a new enterprise, uh, worked outside the US, there is really
a lot going on that is good. So I will say I’d like to shift towards saying
that there is a lot that is inspiring about what is happening in higher ed. One of my mentors, who is, works on workforce policy in the District of Columbia, national and federal workforce policy, keeps reminding me that federal policy no longer controls what’s happening in the workplace, Google
controls, Apple controls, uh, the tech industries do, Tesla controls. Every CEO in the world is worried about being disrupted by an Uber or a Tesla. So there are issues, the workplace is changing, some statistics from the US Department of Labour, um, that the expectation is that today’s college graduates, today’s, it will get worse or, I don’t know if I’d say worse, it will
get more, um, will have at least 10 jobs by the time she is 40, the average, payscale.com says that the average length of time in their job is 3.8 years, people move rather quickly. There is competing data, some say 5%, some say 10%, some say 20%, but growing, will participate in the greater economy, will not have full-time work. And if you’ve ever heard of, how many of you have heard of TaskRabbit? Some of you have. Well, TaskRabbit is an online, and there are
many others like this, where you say I need a job done, can do it and you will get an
instantaneous response at about 20% or 10% of what you would pay going to an established firm. And these are freelance workers on graphic
design, on web design, on accounting, on anything that you want, including moving furniture. There are six million unfilled jobs in the
US. These are jobs that are largely dependent
on critical thinking, on, um, the need for graduates to be able to be, or for the workers to be adaptive, the workforce needs are dramatically changing as automation, artificial intelligence takes hold dramatically. So, um, as Tom Jones, my mentor, says, frankly the Federal Government is so far behind on the policy curve that having a vacuum is not as much a problem as whether higher education itself can adapt to these changes. So I’d like to use my remaining time to highlight what I think are a number of trends that are very exciting, that are happening in a lot
of different institutions. And to say that we’d moved to already a knowledge based economy in the US, yes there are, is going to be industry and they want to bring
offshore jobs back, but the future, it depends on knowledge. It depends on a set of skills that I think
are wrongly defined as soft skills, not just competence and a, and computer science or programming, but a set of workplace skills that I’ll talk more about. So let me just say, uh, just by way of quick
background about the US, I don’t know how much you know about the US higher ed system, 45,000 institutions, 21 million students, a huge range and array. At my accrediting agency we accredited institutions from 30 students to over 100,000 students. The whole California State and the University of California systems, you know, one had 430, 50,000 students, the other had 175,000 students, small boutique institutions, faith-based institutions, um, specialised chiropractic colleges and
a whole range. So, like I said, over 4,000 institutions,
over 3,000 regionally accredited, 45% of the students are in community colleges, so
the issue of transfer or what they do afterwards is a very big issue, and we’ll talk a little
bit about that. There has been a major shift from public support for higher education to put the burden on students, uh, and tuition, even in public
universities, has now become, um, room and board or whatever fees, a huge issue. And the Federal Government outlay for financial aid is 150 plus billion dollars a year. The loan debt is well over one trillion dollars. And so one of the first trends I’ll talk about
is the big shift from input to outcomes, ROI, what’s the return on this investment, there
is real concern that we’re not getting enough return on investment. There has been a dramatic, we still look at,
uh, high selectivity, high lead institutions for Harvard, the Ivies and Stanford, the big
issue is who gets in and we don’t, you know, and not worry so much about what happens to them while they’re there. But the majority of students in the US are
really those students who don’t make it to the elite colleges, only 7 to 10% are in those institutions. So the shift to an outcomes based model has dramatic impact. The second, uh, part of that shift is from
teaching to learning, a shift in the role that given the students have a very variable
and sometimes insufficient preparation. A learning centred model is critical. How of you are familiar with, uh, a seminal
work, in the US at least, called From Teaching to Learning, by Barr and Tagg. I would urge, uh, it’s a 1994 that actually
has transformed the thinking in the US about the model, you can get it online, you can
e-mail me and I’ll send you a copy of it, but it talks about a paradigm shift, about
moving toward a learning centred model. Every accrediting agency in the US has now
moved to an outcomes based model. And the regionals have moved to a student
learning outcomes model that calls for identification at the course programme and institutional
level. There’s been a shift to every student counts model, 20 years ago there was huge attrition, there still is, but now public policy says
every student needs to count, there is Complete College America, which is really focussing
on… The US data is that the attrition rate is
probably around 35% over a four to six year period. But work of Howard Gardiner has shown that most of that attrition is in the first year, students can’t afford it, they stop in and
stop out, uh, but many do not complete and the ones who don’t complete can’t get the
jobs, can’t pay their loans, loan defaults are a very big issue. One of the big innovations in the US is co-remediation, students who are in remedial programmes would get stuck, not complete, not get college credit, so now there’s a big effort to co-remediation the entire the entire California State University system, it’s, it’s moving to that over the next 18 months, and the research shows that that has a big impact as does attention to completion of the first year. A shift towards personalised education, descriptive analytics, there is a tremendous amount of work, where do students get stuck. Often it’s not just in STEM courses, the introductory STEM, but there’s a lot of research now showing in the Gateway courses where large groups
of students take the courses, it could be in psychology, in political science, sociology, but then don’t move on, get stuck in those courses. Predictive analytics, a lot of AI, Arizona
State has done a lot of work, there’s a group called Civitas with close to, over 600,000
students that is trying to work with when students don’t show up for class or early
intervention if they’re not performing well or don’t turn in homework. Arizona State is a good model of how this
has made a very substantial impact on completion. I would also say with respect to personalised education, uh, there is a small group, but an increasing large group, that are trying
to apply the lessons from neuroscience. I’ve just been talking with a researcher
who gave up tenure at the University of Arizona, who’s now working at Stanford, on what’s called universal design for learning and working with a research hospital at the University
of California and San Francisco, for people on the spectrum of autism, people with ADHD and they found that there are now at least seven different genetic codes through brain
scans that have implications on how people learn to read, and not just dyslexia, but
a whole range of reading issues. So we, kind of, bring those, that knowledge
into, not only the pedagogy, but also into the workplace. And I also want to talk about the shift to
personally, not just personalised education, but personally directed education. How many of you have heard about the University of Bellows and Lions, anyone heard of that? I’m sure there must be students from Australia who’d been involved, but this was something started by Stanford a few years ago and it
was to take students, bring them in to the design school, I don’t know if you’ve heard,
Stanford created a, what they call a D-School, which is an open space and people from all
over the world come and do… IDO got divided, designed from that. But the whole idea of the university fellows
alliance is to empower students to engage in work that’s of greatest value to them back on their home campus. They now have a, an alumni group of several thousand students, they have people from all over the world, they come in, they spend a
month, I believe it’s four to six weeks on the Stanford campus, go in to Silicon Valley
and they design, using the D-School principles, projects that they take back home. We have one fellow, an alumni of the fellows programme on our Student Advisory Board at the quality assurance conference, and the
work they’re doing is extraordinary, bringing transformation, student-centred and student-driven transformation into their campuses. How many of you have heard of Maker Faire, Maker Faire is an incredibly exciting thing where inventors off the grid, uh, it started
in 2006 in New York and San Francisco, over 600,000 students, uh, not students, people
come with their families and they make things, they work with inventors and designers and
they’re now all over the country. And one of the projects that I’ve heard that
university fellows have done is the go back to their campuses and they host Maker Faires to engage students to do whatever they’re interested in, in designing. Innovation labs, incubator labs, I don’t know if you have those, many campuses are doing that, they bring industry and actually sell… And of course Stanford has done the best job of that, they’re creating so many millionaires. I don’t know if you’ve heard of Sugata Mitra
who won the TED prize, you might want to look up his Hole in the Wall project about teachers need to get out of the way and that really students are so driven by curiosity, what
they need are powerful questions and they will discover for themselves. I don’t have time to tell you about the exciting work he did with non-English language students, putting a computer up on a wall, you know,
in a Tamil village in India where they learnt how to design, learnt, they learnt in English
how DNA replicates without even knowing English or never having seen a computer before, out of their curiosity. Wonderful experience. A shift to career education, and that’s what
I want to say the community, the QA comments is about. In the US there’s a tremendous gap between the content knowledge that students have and the skills that enable them to be successful
in the workplace. And we are designing a programme level certification process that we’re no longer calling them soft skills, we’re saying essential employability qualities. We want to move beyond what I call the body count metrics of how many got a first job, how many got what salary at what level, as
if that is the definition of quality. The real issue is over a lifetime, or at least
the first 5 to 10 years of work, these graduates go through multiple jobs, if not
careers. Stanford has created something called BEAM, instead of career services they now start in their first week, as many institutions
do, and it’s called building or bridging education ambition and meaningful work. And they’re using strength finders, they’re
doing all kinds of work that’s way beyond creating resumes. And out of their work, and their work with
the D-School at Stanford, two authors created a book called, Designing Your Life, and, which has become a bestseller, I saw it on my daughter’s bookstand the other day and I said, my god,
I’m working with the people who are doing that. And we’re trying to bring the whole idea that faculty now need to really talk about careers for their students. Richard Light at Harvard, um, did a study
a number of years ago and said what led to students going into their careers, it was
not career services, in fact data shows that about 37%, at least in surveys, don’t even
go to get career counselling in the US. It was a faculty member saying, this, you’d
be good at this, Jane you’d be really good, you know, particularly to get a PhD in sociology or something like that. Joseph Aoun, who’s the President of North
Eastern, which he’s done a great job at North Eastern, just wrote a new book called, Robotic Future Proofing, something, Future Proofing Your Education, something like that. He was talking about the faculty now need
to be career advisors, which is something faculty are not trained to do, but this is
what students need. So we are working to bring career services
and a whole new concept of career services, about outcomes for, uh, what used to be called the soft skills, we’re calling it essential employability qualities and to really get
programmes to start a, to build on their conversation about learning to incorporate these kinds
of activities. Just two other things quickly, I know I’m
just on 30 minutes and I want to, I welcome your questions, there are a lot of new providers in the US, coding academies, well over 100,000 students in every major city. The irony about coding academies is their
promise is you’ll get a job within six months at six figures, at least. And they’re very successful at that, except
over 95% of those who enrol already have a Bachelors degree. So it’s not opening IT out to new people,
so there are new approaches to coding, community colleges are working integrating coding academies into the work and the like. I work with, I’ve known, Sebastian Thrun created Udacity and he is quite amazing, he designed a self-driving car for Google, I’d say brilliant. But one thing we don’t know is he tried to
work with San Jose State to use his Udacity model, the MOOC model to teach calculus, and he failed. And he says his course, I mean, his own language, he says his courses really did not succeed. Now partly it was total faculty resistance
at San Jose State, but part of it was we don’t know how to design these MOOC courses for the students, the underrepresented first generation students, we have not succeeded with that. And I think that’s a big challenge. We’ve been very successful with nano degrees and, again, most of his students are already, um, Bachelor degree holders. And finally let me just say that I think there
is a shift in the role of quality assurance agencies. I’m very interested in the work TEQSA is doing, in the US we are required, every institution is required to do a comprehensive self study at least every X years, for us it’s 10 years, with a fifth year review. Most, many are shifting to seven years, with a three and a half year review and a site visit. And so we are all looking at a risk based
model. And the whole idea of doing a desk audit is
something very fresh and new and I know a lot of people have come here and I’ve learnt
a lot and want to learn more, uh, I want to say that international provision and quality
assurance in international provision, is again a key issue. So let me conclude by saying let’s not get
caught up in depression, or at least I’m speaking to myself as much as you, uh, there is a lot
going on and I know there’s a lot going in your institutions and I would love to share
what is really exciting that’s happening in higher education, regardless of what Tweet
comes out of the President’s office today or tomorrow, because it may countermand what he said the day before, but you don’t know. I just want to say that we cannot inspire
others if we’re not inspired ourselves, we cannot lead others if we don’t believe in the power
and the transformational impact of higher education. It is something I’ve devoted my life to, I’m
looking forward to the quality assurance comments being one voice among many that will help
move this transition forward to a new model of higher education. And I look forward to working with you and
hope there’s opportunity for questions and to interact with you the remainder of the
day. Thank you. [Applause].>>DEB VERHOEVEN:
Thanks, Ralph. On the note Maker Spaces, which is an area I know little bit about, which I think is a very interesting innovation space in many
higher education, higher education providers, particularly universities, but not exclusively. Mostly they seem to be located in libraries
and because they’re Maker Spaces, it reiterates this idea that education is appointment based, that it’s place based in some way. So what they’ve done in America, which I think is even more interesting than Maker Spaces, is Maker Buses, and they have mobile pop-ups basically, they all go around to places where education’s more difficult to access and create those spaces locally.>>RALPH WOLFF:
That’s true, there are Maker Spaces, uh, in our cities, particularly high schools and
the like. The creativity of the human being is so enormous and that’s what we need to cultivate.>>DEB VERHOEVEN:
Yeah. We have some of questions and a little bit
of time, um, so we’ll run straight to the first one. How does the outcomes based approach fit with the concept of volume of learning, is there a discussion of competency rather than time based completion?>>RALPH WOLFF:
Yes, there is a major effort called CBE, Competency Based Education, there is a working group,
we’re actually part of the QA Comments, we have 27 programmes, two are competency based, um, and we’re working with them as part of our pilot. The challenge is there are, at least in the
US, there are, there are different models of CBE, they, uh, those that are the, from
the ground up are very costly to develop. And secondly employers have yet to demonstrate that they believe they are better than, uh, traditional reputation based degrees. We have a big sales job. Personally working with the development and as an accreditor we are responsible to review and approve all competency based programmes, the accrediting agency, and some of them are really exciting and are mastery based not
time based. The challenge also in the US, that financial
aid is time based and unfortunately the people in the department at the FSA, the financial
services administration of the department, don’t believe in competency based education. So if you can believe it, they require all
competencies to be converted to credit hours, and not just them.>>DEB VERHOEVEN:
This is, I think, just a quick one, who funds the tuition refund arrangement?>>RALPH WOLFF:
I’m sorry?>>DEB VERHOEVEN:
Who funds the tuition refund arrangement?>>RALPH WOLFF:
Federal Government, billions of dollars are at stake, which is why no action has been
taken.>>DEB VERHOEVEN:
Um, probably two more I think, uh, with the Trump administration’s apparent xenophobia, apparent, I don’t know why that word’s there, and stand against immigration, could reduction of international student enrolment rates bring a rise in the value of higher education as
it would an America first policy? So what will the impact be of anti-immigration policies on pricing in higher education?>>RALPH WOLFF:
Um…>>DEB VERHOEVEN:
We see this as well with the, um, immigration policies for workers on short-term visas for
Google and Microsoft, and in fact the kick-back against Trump’s anti-immigration policies
came from these companies.>>RALPH WOLFF:
Yeah there’s a lot of push-back from the tech companies to the Trump policies, I mean, even though, uh, I mean, part of the challenge is that the tech industry has been, not entirely, but largely Democratic, uh, and the smokestack industries have been largely Republican, so
there’s a lot of competition here about the H1B visas and who gets them and the like. But I would say that the real issue is that,
um, who is going to do the future work in this, in our country and immigrants have,
um, have actually been a net plus to the whole system, even though Fox News and others would suggest that they’re largely criminals. I mean, Trump started his campaign on an escalator calling all Mexicans rapists. So there is this challenge to those who come across the border versus those who have education. And we’re still grappling with it; we don’t
know the implications yet.>>DEB VERHOEVEN:
I think we have time for one last question, would Ralph like political asylum here? [Laughter].>>RALPH WOLFF:
I think if it’s worth saying, well, first of all I’m still very hopeful, uh, with the
changes that I see. But the day after the Trump election, um,
the websites crashed about emigrating to Canada, and a lot of people are still seriously considering can they stay in this environment. It is very personally… The irony is it’s very personally affronting
to many people and, um, I, I cannot tell you the number of conversations that I’ve had
with people who are just stunned, is the right word, one year later. And on the other side there are many who are Republicans who are gleeful that the Obama, and years were spent blocking the Obama administration, attacking his, whether he was an American, where he had been born, uh, and so this divide is very really real, it’s visceral. The reaction to Hilary Clinton is visceral. The reaction to Trump is visceral. There is yet, and he is not seeking to bridge
that gap, and there is no one who can speak to bridging that gap. So I would just say political asylum may be
something, but I would look forward to another visit here without asylum. [Laughter].>>DEB VERHOEVEN:
Well, my advice is if you were to seek asylum in Australia, don’t come by boat. [Laughter]. And on that, you know, delightful note… [Laughter].>>RALPH WOLFF:
Thank you very much.>>DEB VERHOEVEN:
Thank you very much, Ralph. [Applause].